Section 377A in Singapore's Penal code should not be repealed.
It make no sense and logic to reapeal something which does not bring about benefits to Singapore as a whole.
Why should we give the minority right so much while destroying Sinagpore?
Section 377A is a very vibrant and controversial issue. Why should the nation be teared apart just for the sake of gay rights? The debate recently had drawn flaks ,ammunitions from both side of the camp. Both sides react strongly with strong and tough words for each other. Furthermore, MPs who argued for his or her stand recieved tremendnous support and hate mails from the people.We should let this cool down instead of throwing a spanner into the work.
Section 377A states that gay sex are criminalised. Secondly, the scraping of this law would result in more transmission of sexual diseases and decline in moral values in Singapore.
If the law is to be lift, this is deemed as allowing and promoting gays to have right to sex. It is like inviting more vices in the city.
So, people who do not understand may think that being gay is right and having a gay lifestyle is nice. Children may also think being gay is not wrong.The result you get is more gays and less normal families. Gays do not contribute to society in a way that they cannot have their own children.This lead to decline in birth rate.Shall we allow Sinagpore to be like this?
Furthermore, gays who have sex with each other are more prone to AIDS and HIV.Also, gays have disgusting sex habits which spread transmission of AIDS and HIV faster. We do not want to have a community of gays ,HIV and AIDS people.By having the law, the gays will know their limit and keep thier toes in line.
The more the gay activists try to push forward,the more the conservatives push backwards, resulting in lesser right for gays.
Gays in Singapore had already more rights than in other countries.They should not try to push their luck anymore.
It is better to go with the norm, keep the status quo.Section 377A should not be repealed.
Are homosexuals not humans? Do they not bleed the same blood as we do? Do they die when you shoot a bullet at them? Why shouldn't Section 337A in Singapore's Penal Code not be repealed?
Homosexuality. Homosexuality is defined as the sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex. It says nothing about homosexuals having disgusting habits or having incurable sickness such as AIDS or HIV.
People see gays and lesbians as Atrocities or Monstrosities. This is because most of them have never known a gay or a lesbian, have never tried to understand them. Man has always been afraid of what they didn't understand, and Singaporeans, due to the existence of the Penal code 337A, never did.
Homosexuals are different from Metro-sexuals. Although may gays are metro-sexuals, not all practice narcissism. Further more, not all gays exhibit "lady-like" behavior. People, again, generalize gays and lesbians because they probably have never known any. Most gays nowadays integrate well into society, and you can never tell them are part from an average Singaporean.
Sexual orientation begins from birth, and if code 337A were to be repealed, it would pose no threat to the up bringing of a child. Many Gay people have straight friends, I being one of them. But whatever the cause or combination of causes, sexual orientation is not something that people can decide for themselves or for others. Such, being gay is not wrong, because gays can't control it. Can you pin the blame on someone for something they couldn't control?
Yet again, the innocence of the society steps in again when they say gays are more likely to contract HIV and AIDS. This is untruth. One cannot control themselves from getting HIV. Even if you had unprotected sex with multiple sex partners, even if they are of the opposite sex, the threat of HIV and AIDS is still there. Then again, how many people know that that gay community has been promoting safe sex for many years, and that many gays nowadays use condoms while having sex?
Having Gays is like having another race in Singapore. The homosexual community is an essential element in the tapestry of peoples that make Singapore such a unique and cosmopolitan community. Many Gays in Singapore have to act like their homophobic just to continue to have friends. Axing them out of the country is just a denial of the fact that they exist. I think it is time that Singapore opened up. We cannot have Amsterdam or other countries have gay rights, because in the end, we will be the one losing out. Its the same if Singapore sends Indians and Malays back to India and Malaysia.
MM Lee also said,” Eventually I cannot put a finger on it. But I would say if this is the way the world is going and Singapore is part of that interconnected world and I think it is, then I see no option for Singapore but to be part of it.
They tell me and anyway it is probably half-true that homosexuals are creative writers, dancers, et cetera. If we want creative people, then we got to put up with their idiosyncrasies so long as they don't infect the heartland.
We are not promoters of it (homosexuality) and we are not going to allow Singapore to become the vanguard of Southeast Asia.
We would follow the world. A few respectable steps behind."
How are we as the country going to advance as a country if we cannot even allow a small group of people to stay in Singapore?
Then again we ask ourselves. Are gays not humans as well? Do they not bleed the same blood as we do? If you shoot them, will they not die? My opinion, I strongly believe that Singapore should Repeal Penal Code 337A.
Section 337A in Singapore's Penal code should never be repealed.
In the first place, this issue should not be brought up by the government. We should not be allowing gays and lesbians in Singapore as it greatly affects the social balance in Singapore.
If the code is being repealed. Think about what will happen to Singapore;its future generation.
Future generation will be exposed to homosexuals everyday as it is allowed. They will have the thinking that it is perfectly normal to be a homosexual and they are more likely to be one when they encounter some sort of emotional problems.
What will happen then? Singapore will be a place where homosexuals gather,foreign homosexuals will also come here as it is allowed. Related diseases due to homosexuality might also be spread around. By then, is there a place for conservatives? They rather leave Singapore to better places without all these social problems.
There is also a common problem which causes all these homosexualities. In the past we rarely, in fact hear none of the things about gays and lesbians. It is started by a spoonful of people with physiological problems. The news of the existence of homosexuality spreads yearly, and soon, everyone gets to know about it. Psychologically, some were affected. they are curious, they want to try something new, hence, increasing the number of homosexualities in the world. So we cannot say that it is natural born. Its is however their thinking that produces homosexuality.
Therefore we cannot forgive and allow these people with physiological problems to affect the society in Singapore, hence, Section 377A in Singapore's Penal code should not be repealed.
Firstly, you argued that Gay is a race and make Singapore more cosmopolitan.You then contradict yourself again by saying that Homosexuality is defined as the sexual desire or behavior directed towards a person or persons of one 's own sex.If Homosexuality is a form of behavior, how can it be defined as a race.It is flawed. Also,the term cosmopolitan refers to having constituent elements from all over the world or from many different parts of the world.To use it for branding Singapore cosmopolitan is liking to tell a lame joke to an adult.
Secondly,look at the United State. They have a lot of gay rights and they are liberal.Look into their community, there are a lot of splitting.When it comes to gay issues , the nation is widely divided and nothing is done in the debate.The moves by gay activists are blocked by conservatives and similarly vice versa.Don't tell me this is a very good way of moving forward. In fact, US is moving backwards. Statistics has shown that AIDS is and has always been a disease that disproportionately affects the gay community in the US.Is this moving forward? Also, scientists had found damaging evidence that gays who have sex with each other are prone to HIV and AIDS due to their strange methods of having sex. Are you saying that scientists are wrong?
You cannot lump everyone together and say that normal people will have multiple partners and have sex.They will get HIV or AIDS.It is only truth if there is an AIDS person who have multiple partner.
It is an accusation based on prejudice. It is true that people who has sex with multiple partner have a chance in catching the disease.However, not many of Singaporeans behave in such ways.
Singapore did not disallow gays. There are gays working in the civil service and gays are able to having jobs.
However, Singapore is made of largely of conservatives.
Singaporeans do not mind gays having sex as so long they did it in their backyard and not openly. 377A is there to keep gays from doing it openly.
Also, the generalization of gays being creative people is a joke. Gays are creative writers? Let look at some of the established writers, Shakespeare, Stephen King, Stephen Covey and James Patterson. They all have a family and are not gays. Also, the USA economy is slowly increasing due to brain drain. Are the people leaving USA gays? No, they are not and they are normal people like us.
If Section 377A is removed.It is like removing the lid of Pandora's box and which cannot be put back again. If you give gays so much freedom, they will not be satiated until they have all gay rights like gay marriage and gay parties.
It is preposterous to suggest the repeal of Section 377A. We must look into the big picture instead of looking at a narrow piece of puzzle.Do we want to aggravate the religious communities , conservatives just for the own selfish group of gays.Do we want a divided Singapore that made hostile countries laughed at Singapore for its foolishness and foreign investors running away due to instability.
We have come so hard to build Singapore, why should we tear it down just for the gays? Section 377A should not be repealed.
Firstly, I realize your tone is a little towards the aggressive side. No need to be so protective of your moral values. Let’s take perspectives from a more neutral, evidence related standpoint.
I did not say Gays form a race. I said that it is LIKE having another race in Singapore. I don’t contradict myself by saying that homosexuality is a form of behavior and a form of sexuality. By giving an example, I was trying to show that Singapore has a possibility of advancing towards having an even more diverse culture, and that people from all around the world can see Singapore as a place where they will not be discriminated to such negative extents.
I take my definitions from dictionaries, and thus, the proper definition for “cosmopolitan” is: Free from local, provincial, or national ideas, prejudices, or attachments; at home all over the world. Is it not possible, for Singapore, with four different races, to accept homosexuals into the country? Then again, are you trying to tell me that, despite the government’s efforts to turn Singapore into a truly cosmopolitan country, it is actually trying to turn Singapore into what you would define as a ‘lame joke’?
To say that America’s communities are splitting up due to the gay liberalism and gay rights is a perspective. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? You are implying that splitting up is necessarily a bad thing. However we fail to see that the splitting up of one thing is the bonding together of another. According to research by social statisticians, the states in USA which allow gay marriages such as New York, or Massachusetts, have shown a drop in the heterosexual divorce rates, where states such as Utah, or Texas, have, on the other hand, shown an increase of divorce rates.
Please define moving backwards. I assume you are speaking about moral values, because in my opinion, USA is moving forward in most aspects, except for the environmental one, which I believe we are not discussing here today. I still believe that as a person, we do not define what is right and what is wrong. The same scientist that tell us the same ‘damaging evidence’, tell us that the statistics could be wrong because the people interviewed might not have been truthful as they may have hidden vital statistics such as the number of sexual partners they had.
Thus it is not a prejudicial statement that I have made, but on the other hand you should also not generalize that Singaporeans do not have multiple sex partners. I was merely mentioning the risk involved when you have sex. The danger will always be there if we do not use proper protection, whether or not it is the first time you have had sex or have had it the umpteenth time.
The code 337A does not allow gays to have sex openly. The Singapore law does not even allow heterosexuals to have sex openly. Code 337A would mean that if two gays were having sex in a room, and a policeman could come arrest them. Repealing of code 337A would have absolutely nothing to do with gays having sex openly.
Also, if you were to throw names of straight people around, I would equally be obliged to throw an equal amount of names of gay people who have made it big. People like Oscar Wilde, Elton John, even the great composer Tchaikovsky was believed to be gay. I directly quoted MM Lee with regards to gays. Are you telling me that MM Lee was generalizing, or are you telling me what MM Lee said was a joke?
Are you denying the fact that there are talented gay people around? Can they not exist? We must also understand that the people whom you mentioned that were talented people with families could have been gay. The pressure of society at that period was to get married and settle down and have children. Do you have sufficient evidence of their sexuality to prove that they were straight men? How then can having a family prove that they are not gay?
MM Lee’s point of view was to create a cosmopolitan Singapore and in that sense, accept gays because of their talent and recognize their contributions to the economy.
We cannot say that have gays in the community leads to the division of the society. Will foreign investors turn tail and run away from the cosmopolitan country? They of course will weight the benefits of investing in a cosmopolitan country. Do countries laugh at Netherlands because they allowed gay marriages? We cannot look at the big picture and neglect the small piece of puzzle, because every puzzle is an integral part of the picture. Taking the puzzle as the example again, would not the puzzle open up new opportunities?
Are we ‘tearing down’ Singapore when we accept 337A or can we grow exponentially as a country. Singapore, being a country with no national resource, can only depend on their people. Won’t it be a gigantic waste if we chase these resources away?
Firstly,you stated that "I did not say Gays form a race. I said that it is LIKE having another race in Singapore".It seems to me that your assumption is that gays is a race. You define homosexuality is a form of behavior and a form of sexuality. So if homosexual is a behaviour, it could not be a race at all.It is a misconception by many people that gays is a race.What is a race? A race is a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution. Examples of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans,Malays and so on.
Secondly,you stated that" The code 337A does not allow gays to have sex openly. The Singapore law does not even allow heterosexuals to have sex openly. Code 337A would mean that if two gays were having sex in a room, and a policeman could come arrest them. Repealing of code 337A would have absolutely nothing to do with gays having sex openly." I wish to clarify the misconception here. Code 377A is here because to deter gays from doing it in front of public.We do not care what happened in the bedroom as so long it is out of our sight . Because of the law, gays can be arrested so the gays would not dare to do it in public. Have you ever seen newspaper reporting POLICE CAUGHT GAYS HAVING SEX? The fact is no.The Code 377A is not active. If Code 377A is active,I am sure all the gays would be rounded up in jail. So are we not tolerant of gays? So you mean that we are intolerant and must round them up in jail to be call tolerant?
Lastly, your equation that gays equals creative people and talented people baffled me. Isn't this a generalization of gays? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that are no talented people who are gays or creative people who are gays. What you imply that all gays are talented and creative, so all Singaporeans are useless? I feel amused that you have such a view. Yes, some gay people are talented but not everyone of them is talented. But to lump all of gays and say they are creative and talented,while the majority of Singaporeans who are normal are not. Isn't this an insult to yourself and us, Singaporeans?
From your arguement, it seems to me that you are a staunch supporter championing the gay activists view. I have nothing against you , but my point is you cannot look at a piece of puzzle and proclaim it as right.Neither can I proclaim I am right by looking at the big picture. The correct way is the look at the all the puzzles and the big picture. By looking at all the pieces of puzzles, we can have an idea of the big picture. So,by proclaim that you look just only at one side of viewpoint to justify the right of repealing Penal Code 377A, I do not think it is sensible to do so.
I believe we’re not arguing over the effect of my usage of the word ‘race’, because I am using it as an analogy. I was using it to show that Singapore has to accept the Gays in Singapore, to become Cosmopolitan. There is not need to attack my usage of English, instead, the points of my argument. If you can state that a race is a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution. Then as an analogy, there should be nothing wrong with using Gays as a race.
Section 337 in the penal code states, “Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animals, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 10 years, and shall also be liable to fine."
I believe you’ve the misconception of the Penal Code 337A. It still does not allow anyone to have sex openly, homosexual or heterosexual. It is true that policemen don’t barge into people’s room and catch them for having homosexual sex. I’m saying that they can. They don’t do it in front of us now, because it is a crime, and they still won’t do it in front of use anytime soon, because it is still a crime.
Then again, if you say that the code is not active, why keep it? Why burden ourselves with it when we don’t even use it? We can give a little pressure off a minority by use removing something we don’t use
Your argument was Gays were not creative writers. Then you threw some names about. My argument was that there were gays who were creative writers, who are creative writers, and who can be creative writers. You cannot deny that. I did not lump them all together and say that they were all talents. It is not an insult to you, I and all Singaporeans, because there are Gay Singaporeans. You by saying that are taking a very one-sided view, discriminating Gays.
Why are you so hard on Gays, I may ask you. It is probably because of the simple reason that you have known few or you have never been socializing with them. If you understand them, you would have taken their thoughts, feelings and viewpoints into consideration before arguing against repealing 337A. The picture is complete when all pieces are put in place. Even if it is one tiny piece missing, It will never be called finished.
yi agree that section 377a should be repealed. everyone should have EQUAL rights. there are gays and straights in this world, just like there're boys and girls, left-handers and right-handers.
I can not agree, I think section 377A should not be repealed.
I think the section is a measure to control the homosexuality. If the section is repealed, they will not have care about the right and do as possible as they want. They may walk in street with hand in hand; even kiss each other at a public place. If that, we all can think Singapore will be what a bad city.
In ancient time, there are few homosexualities and they are shy to behave their action, so the homosexuality develops very slowly. But now some countries allow them and their behavior, so they become more and more and develop more and more quickly.
I think if section 377A is repealed, there will be more and more homosexualities in Singapore. Section 377A can limit the homosexuality and their behavior and makes Singapore as a whole.’
Gays are not race; they just are some peculiar members of a race. They have the rights that other members have in this race. They don’t need some more rights that make the race out of line.
11 comments:
Kin Yew from DCP 1A 27 :
Section 377A in Singapore's Penal code should not be repealed.
It make no sense and logic to reapeal something which does not bring about benefits to Singapore as a whole.
Why should we give the minority right so much while destroying
Sinagpore?
Section 377A is a very vibrant and
controversial issue. Why should the nation be teared apart just for
the sake of gay rights? The debate
recently had drawn flaks ,ammunitions from both side
of the camp. Both sides react strongly with strong and tough words for each other. Furthermore,
MPs who argued for his or her stand
recieved tremendnous support and hate mails from the people.We should let this cool down instead
of throwing a spanner into the work.
Section 377A states that gay sex are criminalised. Secondly, the scraping of this law would result in more transmission of sexual diseases and decline in moral values in Singapore.
If the law is to be lift, this is deemed as allowing and promoting gays to have right to sex. It is like inviting more vices in the city.
So, people who do not understand may think that being gay is right and having a gay lifestyle is nice. Children may also think being gay is not wrong.The result you get is more gays and less normal families. Gays do not
contribute to society in a way that they cannot have their own children.This lead to decline in birth rate.Shall we allow Sinagpore to be like this?
Furthermore, gays who have sex with each other are more prone to AIDS and HIV.Also, gays have disgusting sex habits which spread transmission of AIDS and HIV faster. We do not want to
have a community of gays ,HIV and AIDS people.By having the law, the
gays will know their limit and keep thier toes in line.
The more the gay activists try to
push forward,the more the conservatives push backwards,
resulting in lesser right for gays.
Gays in Singapore had already more rights than in other countries.They should not try to push their luck anymore.
It is better to go with the norm, keep the status quo.Section 377A
should not be repealed.
Nicholas Hui from DCP/1A/27:
Are homosexuals not humans? Do they not bleed the same blood as we do? Do they die when you shoot a bullet at them? Why shouldn't Section 337A in Singapore's Penal Code not be repealed?
Homosexuality. Homosexuality is defined as the sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex. It says nothing about homosexuals having disgusting habits or having incurable sickness such as AIDS or HIV.
People see gays and lesbians as Atrocities or Monstrosities. This is because most of them have never known a gay or a lesbian, have never tried to understand them. Man has always been afraid of what they didn't understand, and Singaporeans, due to the existence of the Penal code 337A, never did.
Homosexuals are different from Metro-sexuals. Although may gays are metro-sexuals, not all practice narcissism. Further more, not all gays exhibit "lady-like" behavior. People, again, generalize gays and lesbians because they probably have never known any. Most gays nowadays integrate well into society, and you can never tell them are part from an average Singaporean.
Sexual orientation begins from birth, and if code 337A were to be repealed, it would pose no threat to the up bringing of a child. Many Gay people have straight friends, I being one of them. But whatever the cause or combination of causes, sexual orientation is not something that people can decide for themselves or for others. Such, being gay is not wrong, because gays can't control it. Can you pin the blame on someone for something they couldn't control?
Yet again, the innocence of the society steps in again when they say gays are more likely to contract HIV and AIDS. This is untruth. One cannot control themselves from getting HIV. Even if you had unprotected sex with multiple sex partners, even if they are of the opposite sex, the threat of HIV and AIDS is still there. Then again, how many people know that that gay community has been promoting safe sex for many years, and that many gays nowadays use condoms while having sex?
Having Gays is like having another race in Singapore. The homosexual community is an essential element in the tapestry of peoples that make Singapore such a unique and cosmopolitan community. Many Gays in Singapore have to act like their homophobic just to continue to have friends. Axing them out of the country is just a denial of the fact that they exist. I think it is time that Singapore opened up. We cannot have Amsterdam or other countries have gay rights, because in the end, we will be the one losing out. Its the same if Singapore sends Indians and Malays back to India and Malaysia.
MM Lee also said,” Eventually I cannot put a finger on it. But I would say if this is the way the world is going and Singapore is part of that interconnected world and I think it is, then I see no option for Singapore but to be part of it.
They tell me and anyway it is probably half-true that homosexuals are creative writers, dancers, et cetera. If we want creative people, then we got to put up with their idiosyncrasies so long as they don't infect the heartland.
We are not promoters of it (homosexuality) and we are not going to allow Singapore to become the vanguard of Southeast Asia.
We would follow the world. A few respectable steps behind."
How are we as the country going to advance as a country if we cannot even allow a small group of people to stay in Singapore?
Then again we ask ourselves. Are gays not humans as well? Do they not bleed the same blood as we do? If you shoot them, will they not die? My opinion, I strongly believe that Singapore should Repeal Penal Code 337A.
Qiming from DCP/1B/27
I disagree.
Section 337A in Singapore's Penal code should never be repealed.
In the first place, this issue should not be brought up by the government.
We should not be allowing gays and lesbians in Singapore as it greatly affects the social balance in Singapore.
If the code is being repealed. Think about what will happen to Singapore;its future generation.
Future generation will be exposed to homosexuals everyday as it is allowed. They will have the thinking that it is perfectly normal to be a homosexual and they are more likely to be one when they encounter some sort of emotional problems.
What will happen then?
Singapore will be a place where homosexuals gather,foreign homosexuals will also come here as it is allowed. Related diseases due to homosexuality might also be spread around.
By then, is there a place for conservatives?
They rather leave Singapore to better places without all these social problems.
There is also a common problem which causes all these homosexualities. In the past we rarely, in fact hear none of the things about gays and lesbians. It is started by a spoonful of people with physiological problems. The news of the existence of homosexuality spreads yearly, and soon, everyone gets to know about it.
Psychologically, some were affected. they are curious, they want to try something new, hence, increasing the number of homosexualities in the world. So we cannot say that it is natural born.
Its is however their thinking that produces homosexuality.
Therefore we cannot forgive and allow these people with physiological problems to affect the society in Singapore, hence, Section 377A in Singapore's Penal code should not be repealed.
Kin Yew from DCP 1A 27:
I wish to address some points
made by Nicholas.
Firstly, you argued that Gay is a
race and make Singapore more cosmopolitan.You then contradict
yourself again by saying that Homosexuality is defined as the
sexual desire or behavior directed
towards a person or persons of
one 's own sex.If Homosexuality is
a form of behavior, how can it be
defined as a race.It is flawed.
Also,the term cosmopolitan refers to having constituent elements from all over the world or from many different parts of the world.To use
it for branding Singapore cosmopolitan is liking to tell a lame joke to an adult.
Secondly,look at the United State.
They have a lot of gay rights and
they are liberal.Look into their
community, there are a lot of
splitting.When it comes to gay
issues , the nation is widely
divided and nothing is done in
the debate.The moves by gay activists are blocked by conservatives and similarly vice
versa.Don't tell me this is a
very good way of moving forward.
In fact, US is moving backwards.
Statistics has shown that AIDS is
and has always been a disease that
disproportionately affects the gay
community in the US.Is this moving
forward? Also, scientists had found
damaging evidence that gays who
have sex with each other are prone
to HIV and AIDS due to their strange methods of having sex. Are
you saying that scientists are
wrong?
You cannot lump everyone together and say that normal people will have multiple partners and have sex.They will get HIV or AIDS.It is
only truth if there is an AIDS person who have multiple partner.
It is an accusation based on prejudice. It is true that people
who has sex with multiple partner
have a chance in catching the
disease.However, not many of Singaporeans behave in such ways.
Singapore did not disallow gays.
There are gays working in the
civil service and gays are able
to having jobs.
However, Singapore is made of largely of conservatives.
Singaporeans do not mind gays having sex as so long they did it in their backyard and not openly. 377A is there to keep gays from doing it openly.
Also, the generalization of gays
being creative people is a joke.
Gays are creative writers? Let look
at some of the established writers,
Shakespeare, Stephen King, Stephen
Covey and James Patterson. They all
have a family and are not gays.
Also, the USA economy is slowly
increasing due to brain drain.
Are the people leaving USA gays?
No, they are not and they are normal people like us.
If Section 377A is removed.It is like removing the lid of Pandora's box and which cannot be put back again.
If you give gays so much freedom, they will not be satiated until
they have all gay rights like
gay marriage and gay parties.
It is preposterous to suggest the
repeal of Section 377A. We must look into the big picture instead
of looking at a narrow piece of
puzzle.Do we want to aggravate
the religious communities ,
conservatives just for the own
selfish group of gays.Do we want a
divided Singapore that made hostile countries laughed at Singapore for its foolishness and
foreign investors running away due to instability.
We have come so hard to build
Singapore, why should we tear
it down just for the gays?
Section 377A should not be repealed.
Nicholas Hui DCP/1A/27 :
Firstly, I realize your tone is a little towards the aggressive side. No need to be so protective of your moral values. Let’s take perspectives from a more neutral, evidence related standpoint.
I did not say Gays form a race. I said that it is LIKE having another race in Singapore. I don’t contradict myself by saying that homosexuality is a form of behavior and a form of sexuality. By giving an example, I was trying to show that Singapore has a possibility of advancing towards having an even more diverse culture, and that people from all around the world can see Singapore as a place where they will not be discriminated to such negative extents.
I take my definitions from dictionaries, and thus, the proper definition for “cosmopolitan” is: Free from local, provincial, or national ideas, prejudices, or attachments; at home all over the world. Is it not possible, for Singapore, with four different races, to accept homosexuals into the country? Then again, are you trying to tell me that, despite the government’s efforts to turn Singapore into a truly cosmopolitan country, it is actually trying to turn Singapore into what you would define as a ‘lame joke’?
To say that America’s communities are splitting up due to the gay liberalism and gay rights is a perspective. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? You are implying that splitting up is necessarily a bad thing. However we fail to see that the splitting up of one thing is the bonding together of another. According to research by social statisticians, the states in USA which allow gay marriages such as New York, or Massachusetts, have shown a drop in the heterosexual divorce rates, where states such as Utah, or Texas, have, on the other hand, shown an increase of divorce rates.
Please define moving backwards. I assume you are speaking about moral values, because in my opinion, USA is moving forward in most aspects, except for the environmental one, which I believe we are not discussing here today. I still believe that as a person, we do not define what is right and what is wrong. The same scientist that tell us the same ‘damaging evidence’, tell us that the statistics could be wrong because the people interviewed might not have been truthful as they may have hidden vital statistics such as the number of sexual partners they had.
Thus it is not a prejudicial statement that I have made, but on the other hand you should also not generalize that Singaporeans do not have multiple sex partners. I was merely mentioning the risk involved when you have sex. The danger will always be there if we do not use proper protection, whether or not it is the first time you have had sex or have had it the umpteenth time.
The code 337A does not allow gays to have sex openly. The Singapore law does not even allow heterosexuals to have sex openly. Code 337A would mean that if two gays were having sex in a room, and a policeman could come arrest them. Repealing of code 337A would have absolutely nothing to do with gays having sex openly.
Also, if you were to throw names of straight people around, I would equally be obliged to throw an equal amount of names of gay people who have made it big. People like Oscar Wilde, Elton John, even the great composer Tchaikovsky was believed to be gay. I directly quoted MM Lee with regards to gays. Are you telling me that MM Lee was generalizing, or are you telling me what MM Lee said was a joke?
Are you denying the fact that there are talented gay people around? Can they not exist? We must also understand that the people whom you mentioned that were talented people with families could have been gay. The pressure of society at that period was to get married and settle down and have children. Do you have sufficient evidence of their sexuality to prove that they were straight men? How then can having a family prove that they are not gay?
MM Lee’s point of view was to create a cosmopolitan Singapore and in that sense, accept gays because of their talent and recognize their contributions to the economy.
We cannot say that have gays in the community leads to the division of the society. Will foreign investors turn tail and run away from the cosmopolitan country? They of course will weight the benefits of investing in a cosmopolitan country. Do countries laugh at Netherlands because they allowed gay marriages? We cannot look at the big picture and neglect the small piece of puzzle, because every puzzle is an integral part of the picture. Taking the puzzle as the example again, would not the puzzle open up new opportunities?
Are we ‘tearing down’ Singapore when we accept 337A or can we grow exponentially as a country. Singapore, being a country with no national resource, can only depend on their people. Won’t it be a gigantic waste if we chase these resources away?
References
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/257902.htm
http://dictionary.com
Kin Yew from DCP 1A 27:
I wish to address some of your point.
Firstly,you stated that "I did not say Gays form a race. I said that it is LIKE having another race in Singapore".It seems to me that your
assumption is that gays is a race.
You define homosexuality is a form of behavior and a form of sexuality.
So if homosexual is a behaviour, it could not be a race at all.It is
a misconception by many people
that gays is a race.What is a race?
A race is a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution. Examples of Chinese,
Japanese, Koreans,Malays and so on.
Secondly,you stated that" The code 337A does not allow gays to have sex openly. The Singapore law does not even allow heterosexuals to have sex openly. Code 337A would mean that if two gays were having sex in a room, and a policeman could come arrest them. Repealing of code 337A would have absolutely nothing to do with gays having sex openly." I wish to clarify the misconception here. Code 377A is
here because to deter gays from
doing it in front of public.We do
not care what happened in the bedroom as so long it is out of our sight .
Because of the law, gays
can be arrested so the gays would
not dare to do it in public. Have you ever seen newspaper reporting POLICE CAUGHT GAYS HAVING SEX? The fact is no.The Code 377A is not active. If Code 377A is active,I am sure all the gays would be rounded up in jail. So are we not tolerant of gays? So you mean that we are intolerant and must round them up in jail to be call tolerant?
Lastly, your equation that gays equals creative people and talented people baffled me. Isn't this a generalization of gays?
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that are no talented people
who are gays or creative people who are gays. What you imply that all gays are talented and creative, so all Singaporeans are useless? I feel amused that you have such a view. Yes, some gay people are talented but not everyone of them is talented. But to lump all of gays and say they are creative and talented,while the majority of Singaporeans who are normal are not. Isn't this an insult to yourself and us, Singaporeans?
From your arguement, it seems to me that you are a staunch supporter
championing the gay activists view.
I have nothing against you , but my point is you cannot look at a
piece of puzzle and proclaim it as
right.Neither can I proclaim I am right by looking at the big picture. The correct way is the look at the all the puzzles and the big picture. By looking at all
the pieces of puzzles, we can have
an idea of the big picture. So,by
proclaim that you look just only
at one side of viewpoint to justify the right of repealing Penal Code 377A, I do not think
it is sensible to do so.
The defintion of race has been
taken from www.answers.com
Nicholas Hui from DCP/1A/27
I believe we’re not arguing over the effect of my usage of the word ‘race’, because I am using it as an analogy. I was using it to show that Singapore has to accept the Gays in Singapore, to become Cosmopolitan. There is not need to attack my usage of English, instead, the points of my argument. If you can state that a race is a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution. Then as an analogy, there should be nothing wrong with using Gays as a race.
Section 337 in the penal code states, “Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animals, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 10 years, and shall also be liable to fine."
I believe you’ve the misconception of the Penal Code 337A. It still does not allow anyone to have sex openly, homosexual or heterosexual. It is true that policemen don’t barge into people’s room and catch them for having homosexual sex. I’m saying that they can. They don’t do it in front of us now, because it is a crime, and they still won’t do it in front of use anytime soon, because it is still a crime.
Then again, if you say that the code is not active, why keep it? Why burden ourselves with it when we don’t even use it? We can give a little pressure off a minority by use removing something we don’t use
Your argument was Gays were not creative writers. Then you threw some names about. My argument was that there were gays who were creative writers, who are creative writers, and who can be creative writers. You cannot deny that. I did not lump them all together and say that they were all talents. It is not an insult to you, I and all Singaporeans, because there are Gay Singaporeans. You by saying that are taking a very one-sided view, discriminating Gays.
Why are you so hard on Gays, I may ask you. It is probably because of the simple reason that you have known few or you have never been socializing with them. If you understand them, you would have taken their thoughts, feelings and viewpoints into consideration before arguing against repealing 337A. The picture is complete when all pieces are put in place. Even if it is one tiny piece missing, It will never be called finished.
yi agree that section 377a should be repealed. everyone should have EQUAL rights. there are gays and straights in this world, just like there're boys and girls, left-handers and right-handers.
I can not agree, I think section 377A should not be repealed.
I think the section is a measure to control the homosexuality. If the section is repealed, they will not have care about the right and do as possible as they want. They may walk in street with hand in hand; even kiss each other at a public place. If that, we all can think Singapore will be what a bad city.
In ancient time, there are few homosexualities and they are shy to behave their action, so the homosexuality develops very slowly. But now some countries allow them and their behavior, so they become more and more and develop more and more quickly.
I think if section 377A is repealed, there will be more and more homosexualities in Singapore. Section 377A can limit the homosexuality and their behavior and makes Singapore as a whole.’
Gays are not race; they just are some peculiar members of a race. They have the rights that other members have in this race. They don’t need some more rights that make the race out of line.
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